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Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Monday, October 29, 2012

[WoT] Digging Through Archives: Czolg P - Polish Maus

In different sources dedicated to Polish armoured vehicles from time to time one can run into various Polish tank projects that didn't make it to real life. Among those projects, there are even heavies, though after a closer look, it appears that at best we would only get Polish counterpart for KV (which is good by itself).

Meanwhile, our guys found a curious document in the bosom of Central Archive of the Russian Ministry of Defence. This document can open the whole new chapter in history of Polish tank development. The vehicle described there is able to top the tree, and, in addition to that, based on its specs, it would make a serious opponent to other high tiers. The author of the project is equally fascinating, as a person is famous in both Poland and abroad. I believe many of his fans have close to no idea about that page of his biography. And in his turn, he avoided mentioning this fact in his memoirs. So, it's sort of exclusive. :)

October 17, 1944. State Defense Commitee received the messaged from the recently freed Lviv. The author of that letter named Projects of technical innovations in defense industry was a certain Stanisław Lem. The message was written in Polish and included illustrations of what the author suggested as aid for Read Army in its struggle with Nazi Germany. The letter covers a number of technical projects, including small tanks, wheel tanks, and even rocket missiles, but we are interested in item N1.


The vehicle, suggested by Stanisław Lem, was named Czolg P (Pancernik) or tank-battleship. According to his concept, the vehicle would weigh 220 t, having 10m length and 4m width. 



Tank would have cast hall. Suggested armament - 152-155mm gun (est.) mounted in main turret, 2 AA machine-guns in the rear, and 4 machine guns in smaller coppulas along the perimeter (one per each). Czolg P would have 4 tracks set in motion by single diesel engine. All in all, that would make a super heavy tank, comparable to any possible opponent. Though, the Soviet Command wasn't interested in the project - there were enough ground cruiser projects at that time.

The original message (PL):



Central Archive of the Russian Ministry of Defence, fund 38, inventory 11350, case N1039

What Czolg P could have as its main armament, based on the range of Polish guns, available that time (1939), is the following: 155MM WZ.40 gun which just as the gun on Czolg P bluepring, had a muzzle break, barrel length of 8.1m, muzzle velocity of 900 m/s, and rate of fire - 3 rpm. That would undoubtedly reduce to ashes any vehicle of that period.


When it comes to AA guns, it's easy - 40 mm WZ.36. And as for low caliber auto guns, this could as well be 20mm Nkm wz. 38 FK.

So generally speaking, Polish Maus would be "independent" and extremely dangerous, especially due to the fact that based on the suggested weight and size, armour thickness would make 200+mm. 

63 comments:

  1. "Recently freed Lviv"? For Polish people it was Russian aggresion on homeland, which started occupation of more than half of that-time Poland territory for several years.

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    1. I admit different PoVs, you can read it as "freed from Germans".

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    2. Anyway, focus is on the tank. :)

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    3. Tomasz, we are talking about 1944, not 1939.

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    4. @Dead_Skin_Mask - right, sorry. But the "freeing" itself should be remembered as it really happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_Uprising

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    5. Who thinks a nation "frees" countries without thinking of the own profit is deeply naive and dumb.

      Rockefeller sayed something similar related to democracy and near east.

      Russia used poland same way as germany did.

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    6. Aye, sure thing. Just freed from those who were going to annihilate all Slavic nations. Not a big deal.

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    7. Slavic, non slavic, who cares. Differ people race wise is propaganda anyway. Backwardish thinking is pushed too much in societies and nations. Even today when people should know better.

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    8. Aye, because one can't change neither present times nor future, it's always tempting to change past over and over again.

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    9. somehow you tend to have forgotten that comrade Stalin and his side-kicks annihilated perhaps even more Slavic people than Germans did.. not even talking about his own georgians and other non-Slavic nations ruled by him and his peace-corps..

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  2. When Lem made this drawings, he was 23 years old and had no technical education, so it is hard to call it a new chapter in history of Polish tank development :). Although he had seen a lot of military equipment working in occupied Lvov as a mechanic and welder assistant in German company. In 1944 Lem was just starting to study medicine.

    I treat this project more as first Lem's science-fiction work, then serious military project :)

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    1. Still it is impressive. :) Even taking into account that it has never left the drawer.

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    2. What is so impressive about it? I can draw a huge tank or robot or whatever now and give it 5 300mm guns and 800mm armor all around, does that make me a great tank desiner?

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    3. agreed, this is just a youngster's drawing, not a tank concept

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    4. Overlord, you are easy to impress. I should ask my little brother to draw some huge tank sketches. You can add them to your "archives".

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    5. Someone takes the info too seriously.

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    6. Sorry, mate. Your brother's drawing is unlikely to inspire a new high tier tank for a planned tech tree. Sorry. With all due respect.

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    7. You are right. A 1500mm gun is maybe way too OP. Even if it'd be a russian tank.

      Is this a info? I thought it'S some trolling? But if it'S a info, how can it not be serious? Stop making no sense! Or just phrasing again?:D

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    8. Non-sense is what I'm trying to be good at over here.

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    9. Then I bow to the master of nonsense.

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  3. A drawing made by a 3 yo kid? Srsly? New deeps or digged in the archives of a kindergarden? If this is what the "archives" you always rely on look, then you should burn them. My little brother draws better sketches. It'S engine will be in the front according to WG'S logic: the AA turret takes too much place in the rear. Just implement this bullshit. But if you do, do Ratte too to destroy this game once and for all with your stupid running after polish kids screaming they want to have some fantasy tanks they never had the capacity to build.

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    1. Btw. Stanisław Lem is polish Sc-Fi novelist :)

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    2. No! It would be funny, if we had this one in the game.

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    3. Much more important: What would the polish food consumable be?

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    4. Let's discuss possible consumable for EU tree here.

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    5. That's pretty much international. :)

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    6. We would have Bigos ;p (cabbage with some other stuff) its preety tasty

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  4. it was said that the type 59 will be available for special occasions. So maybe it would be good idea to let players buy it on the ocassion of golden joystick victory ? I hope guy responsible for this blog will tell guys responsible for premium tanks and store about this idea :)I'll be the first buyer!

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  5. If you puts this thing in game, what would then be the idear with the Maus? It seems like this thing got better armor, A BIGGER gun, more hp...

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    1. And four fat MG emplacements on front, side and rear, that you can't hide :)

      This tank isn't a good candidate for a tier 10 tank because if these MGs would be the only weakspots, it would be horribly silly to have the tank only damageable in four, retarded I might add, places...

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  6. That's a pretty cool find, reminds me of the beastly "Cyclops" vehicle that Lem described in his "The Invincible" novel.

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  7. So when will we see this as the tier X tank for the European tech tree?

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  8. Regardless of being a sci-fi-drawing or not; it's an entertaining post as usual. Keep them comming.

    Overlord; in what release can we expect the Indienpanzer? I'm driving the DB3002 again to grind up exp and crew, but i wonder if I up agains a 2,6, or 12 months wait?

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    1. Difficult to assess really, we really find the current contents portions a bit too big for the players to digest, so it may take a while.

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    2. Yes i cant belive the volume you have been pouring over us lately. It's been a lot, and nice.

      Nontheless; the second german medium branch needen't come in one patch. One tier at a time is nice and digestable. It is soon X-mas and Santa too is waiting for the Indienpanzer :)

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    3. New vehicles can wait. Rather fix bugs and work on the engine and new game modes.

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    4. Well, I think that you can slow down and release just a few machines per patch. I would also accept patch without tanks. Grinding all I wished in US tree took me a year :). I just started RU and Ger, but now my focus will go on Brits. And there are coming new US beauties (gimme T69! ;) ). Yeah there is enough machines for a few years if playing for me :D

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    5. Yes, slowing down a bit with content is a possible way to go.

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    6. Very bad idea. I think 1 branch per patch is a very good ratio. Haters gonna hate. Always :p
      Also you want this thing in game?

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    7. Aye, and one nation per patch is even better. :)

      Czolg? Would be a nice trolling. Not serious enough tho.

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    8. Czołg is Polish word meaning tank :). It is made from verb czołgać się, which means crawl.

      Tanks name used by Lem is "Pancernik" (which can be both translated as battleship or Armadillo)

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    9. Sry, missed out P in a previous message.

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  9. Its a nice find Overlord, a nice piece of work from Lem.

    But please DO NOT make this a tier X ..
    Tanks based on drawings by someone who later wrote science fiction novels.

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  10. and now u may add a new polish tech tree with only one tank .

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    1. Yea! For 500K free XP. So you rather have to spend gold or play till you have the free XP aside! So many people will spend gold for it! Perfect money trap! I am a genious! WG you need me!:D

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    2. @DD

      Read something before you start posting stupid comments. Without any special effort it is possible to make Polish mini-tree till tier V in two lines using even a little more strict rules as were in German, French or US tree (so without inventing tanks which didn't exist even as project as in case of E-50M).

      In 1939 Poland mass produced tanks comparable with Pz35T (LT35), had prototypes of machines comparable with BT-7 and - as Overlord wrote - blueprints of machines comparable with KV. There was also project comparable with machines like PzIV, T34 or Sherman. All were serious military projects not SF like in case of this Lem-tank.

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    3. Yup, Polish presence in EU tree (if it happens) can be rather siginificant. However the issue with the whole EU tree is high tiers.

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    4. Yes that problems are understandable. So far I was thinking about Swiss Pz 58/pz 61 as tier X med, Swedish half prototype- half blueprint of tank KRV similar to AMX 50B. You can also consider Czech project of TVP tank for high tier meds.

      I think there won't be big problem, if EU tree will be huge in lower tiers with many lines and much tinner in high tiers (so a few lines leading to one X tier).

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    5. Swiss Pz 58/pz 61 is a decent one. Yup. +1.

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    6. Did you hear the man? Dont you dare forget about TPV, I think I can speak for all Czech tankers when I say that I want to see that happen.

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  11. the same Stanislaw Lem famous for his science fiction novels....

    no further comment

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  12. Im eagerly awaiting to drive this beast, Czolg P shall save all siemka warriors from ruin

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  13. So there's the KV-220t,

    and there's an earlier sketch of a truly 220t tank,

    and the designers of the 220t gave it to the designers of the KV-220t.

    Brilliant!

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  14. Heheh OL- sarcastic all the time :) Im Pole and i have no problems with polish tech tree. If it is possible to add it - great! But if its not - ok, no big deal :) Poland had hard times since first commited creation of country. Wars etc....
    So heading back to the point - i would love to see and buy just one polish tank (can be premium low tier). Poles are proud nation, we're drinking a lot of vodka, smoking cigarettes and going back to "better times" of our lives. So i would love to own just one simple II or III tier tank in my garage.
    With best regards

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    1. @Czarek

      I really hope that your post was meant to be ;)- type. Especially the part about drinking, smokin' and dreamin'. Me and my friends are polish too, but we are looking for the future rather then past and I think that is the case for most of us right now. You described old timers who can not find themselves in new reality.

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  15. Nice finding - is it for real or do you belarussians pull off April jokes at the 1st of November?
    ;-)

    Thanks for posting, makes a nice addition to my Stanislav Lem collection on the Kindle.

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